Memorandum
of Conversation/1/
/1/
Source: National Archives, Nixon Presidential Materials, NSC Files, Box 849,
For the President's File, China Trip, China Exchanges, October 20, 1971. Top Secret; Sensitive; Exclusively Eyes Only. According to
an attached memorandum from Lord to Kissinger, December 15, Lord drafted the
memorandum and Kissinger approved it as accurate. Kissinger's account of this
conversation with Huang Hua is in The White House
Years, p. 906.
PARTICIPANTS
Ambassador
Huang Hua, PRC Permanent Representative to the United
Nations and Ambassador to Canada
Ch'en Ch'u, PRC Deputy
Permanent Representative to the United Nations and Director, Information
Department, Ministry of Foreign Affairs
T'ang Wen'sheng,
Interpreter
Shih Yen-hua, Interpreter
Henry A. Kissinger, Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs
Ambassador George Bush, US Representative to the United Nations
Brig. General Alexander M. Haig, Jr., Deputy
Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs
Winston Lord, Senior NSC Staff Member
Dr.
Kissinger: I see you in the newspapers all the time. You're a great publicity
expert. And very argumentative.
Ambassador
Huang: No, I always argue in self-defense.
Ch'en Ch'u:
He counterattacks in self-defense.
Dr.
Kissinger: Preemptive attack.
Mr.
Ambassador, what we have is not strictly UN business, but our contact in
Miss T'ang: Mr. Walters?
Dr.
Kissinger: He is not in
This may
turn out to become UN business, but we wanted the Prime Minister urgently to
know certain things we are doing. Therefore we have taken the liberty of this
slightly irregular procedure. (Ambassador Huang nods.)
The
apartment is slightly improved over last time. Next time we meet we will really
have a suitable place. (Looking at a Chinese scroll on the wall) There seems to
be a wandering Chinese painting that we hang up every time we have an
apartment. (Chinese laughter.) I hope those sentences
are friendly.
Ambassador
Huang: I can't see them from such a distance.
Ch'en Ch'u:
(Looking at the scroll) It is an ancient poem.
Dr.
Kissinger: I have some great colored pictures of you (Ch'en).
I will send them to you. They were taken at the Great Wall.
Let me
explain to you what we have done in various categories. Incidentally, just so
everyone knows exactly what we do, we tell you about our conversations with the
Soviets; we do not tell the Soviets about our conversations with you. In fact,
we don't tell our own colleagues that I see you. George Bush is the only person
outside the White House who knows I come here.
You know
we have made a number of public declarations about
You know
what we have done in the United Nations so there is no point in reviewing this
with you.
In
addition we have taken other measures. We have canceled $87 million of loans to
Ambassador
Huang: $40 million or $14 million?
Dr.
Kissinger: $14 million. But in addition, there is $17 million due to be
purchased which fell through because we aren't issuing new licenses. So the net
cancellation amounted to $31 million. In fact, we have canceled the entire
military equipment line to
Then we
have two other items due to be signed this week that we are not signing, and
that we have no intention of signing. One is an agreement for $72 million worth
of food, PL 480.
Miss T'ang: PL 480?
Dr.
Kissinger: That's a food program, a specific program. Another is $100 million
in loans. And we are working, using our influence, at the World Bank to defer
loans of $75 million which are becoming due. Our Ambassador (looking toward
Bush) thinks we are never doing anything.
Ambassador
Huang: You mean Mr. Bush thought that you are doing nothing?
Dr.
Kissinger: He thinks we just sit in the White House and do nothing.
Ambassador
Bush: I think I do all the work and that they do nothing.
Dr.
Kissinger: What he really thinks is that we are pursuing an evenhanded policy.
That's what our press spokesman says.
Now I want
to tell the Ambassador, for the Prime Minister, about a number of
communications we have had with the
Ambassador
Huang: You mean in the sense of the first question just discussed, i.e., the
question of the India-Pakistan subcontinent?
Dr.
Kissinger: Yes, India-Pakistan. We have had the following contacts-the Soviet
Ambassador is back in
Miss T'ang: Soviet Counsellor?
Dr.
Kissinger: Mr. Vorontsov. He's the Chargé. And I told
him that the Soviets support of Indian aggression endangers the relationship
between the
On
Monday,/2/ President Nixon sent a letter/3/ to Secretary General Brezhnev in
which he said that Indian aggression with Soviet support is unacceptable to the
United States, and that if pursued this would complicate for a long time the
international situation and would have an adverse effect-this is a quote-on the
whole range of our relationships. (Ambassador Huang checks the translation.)
/2/
December 6.
/3/
Document 236.
Mr.
Brezhnev sent a reply/4/-we sent the letter December 6 and we received the
reply December 9th in the morning. The letter was phrased in conciliatory
language and it proposes a ceasefire and "an immediate"-this is
quoting again-"resumption of negotiations between the Government of
Pakistan and the
/4/
Document 253.
Miss T'ang: You said . . . ?
Dr.
Kissinger: I said orally that on March 25 there was a united
Yesterday,
December 9, we learned that the Soviet Minister of Agriculture was in
Ambassador
Huang: His name?
Dr.
Kissinger: Matskevich. These gentlemen (the Chinese)
have a file on everybody. Someday I must find out what they know about me; it
is more than I do. (Ambassador Huang gestures in mock denial.)
During
this discussion, which lasted 15 minutes and was primarily a statement by the
President, the President emphasized that Pakistan is a friend of the United
States and that if India were to continue its attacks and launch an attack
against West Pakistan, it could lead to a US-Soviet confrontation.
Today, on
December 10, we sent forward a reply to Brezhnev./5/ We pointed out that-this
is based on the information we have that the Pakistani commander in East
Pakistan has asked for a ceasefire-we said if there is not a ceasefire in West
Pakistan as well, "we would have to conclude that there is in progress an
act of aggression directed at the whole of Pakistan, a friendly country, toward
which we have obligations."
/5/
Document 269.
In order
to underline what we have said, we worked with a number of countries to provide
aid to
Ambassador
Huang: But this is not in the letter that you are quoting.
Dr.
Kissinger: No, I am telling you about this. This is terribly complex. We are
barred by law from giving equipment to
So we have
worked out the following arrangements with a number of countries. We have told
On this
basis, four planes are leaving Jordan today and 22 over the weekend. Ammunition
and other equipment is going from
Ambassador
Huang: You mean over the weekend?
Dr.
Kissinger: We don't know the exact time, but immediately we understand. And six
planes from
In
addition, we are moving a number of naval ships in the West Pacific toward the
Ambassador
Huang: (laughing) I'm no expert.
Dr.
Kissinger: I'm not either. There is no difficulty.
There is
not much in the Soviet fleet. What is the total number, Al? (to
Haig) I've read it somewhere.
Ambassador
Huang: There's a cruiser coming in now.
Dr.
Kissinger: Their ships are not much.
I now come
to a matter of some sensitivity. We have received a report that one of your
personnel in a European country, in a conversation with another European, expressed
uncertainty about the Soviet dispositions on your borders and a desire for
information about them. We do not ourselves concentrate on tactical
intelligence. We only have information about the general disposition, and we
collect it at irregular intervals by satellite. But we would be prepared at
your request, and through whatever sources you wish, to give you whatever
information we have about the disposition of Soviet forces. I don't have it
with me, but we can arrange it easily wherever you wish and in an absolutely
secure way.
Secondly,
the President wants you to know that it's, of course, up to the People's
Republic to decide its own course of action in this situation, but if the
People's Republic were to consider the situation on the Indian subcontinent a
threat to its security, and if it took measures to protect its security, the US
would oppose efforts of others to interfere with the People's Republic. We are
not recommending any particular steps; we are simply informing you about the
actions of others.
The
movement of our naval forces is still East of the
Straits of Malacca and will not become obvious until Sunday/6/ evening when
they cross the Straits.
/6/
December 12.
I would
like to give you our assessment of the military situation on the subcontinent.
I don't know whether you have any assessments. I would like to give this to you
and then tell you one other thing.
The
Pakistani army in the East has been destroyed. The Pakistani army in the West
will run out of what we call POL-gas and oil-in another two to three weeks, two
weeks probably, because the oil storage capacity in
So it
seems to us that through a combination of pressures and political moves it is
important to keep
We sent
yesterday the relevant paragraphs, the non-rhetorical paragraphs, from
Brezhnev's letter to President Yahya for his opinion.
(To Ambassador Huang and Miss T'ang) Why don't you
read what we told him? It is an unusual method of proceeding, but we have to
understand each other. This is just a quotation, an extract. (To Miss T'ang) Don't write it down word for word,
You don't
need a master spy. We give you everything (handing over his file). We read that
you brought a master spy with you. You don't need him. He couldn't get this by
himself. (Chinese laughter) Next time he (Ambassador Huang) will show me one of
his dispatches, but it will do me no good at all, since I can't read it.
(Chinese laughter)
(To
Ambassador Bush) Don't you discuss diplomacy this way.
Ambassador
Bush: I'm trying to understand it. I'm waiting for the Chinese translation.
(Miss T'ang continues to read out the cable to Yahya.)/7/
/7/
See Document 259.
Dr.
Kissinger: This is to our Ambassador, but it goes through a secret channel. No
one in the bureaucracy sees it. (Miss T'ang keeps
reading.)
I went
over this with the Pakistani Ambassador. I showed it to him to see if he
thought it was alright.
Miss T'ang: And then you sent it.
Dr.
Kissinger: So we are being open and we are doing it in friendship.
Miss T'ang: (Repeating) "disassociation."
Dr.
Kissinger: Let me explain, Mr. Ambassador. If the Russians advocate
negotiations as they were in March, that means they cannot accept Bangla Desh. (To the Ambassador)
You can read that next page.
Miss T'ang: It says "exclusively eyes only."
Dr.
Kissinger: There's a better one that says "burn before reading."
(Dr. Kissinger
confirms the translation.)
(Miss T'ang keeps reading) I wanted you to know so that you know
exactly what we tell them. Now they have replied to us. Can I read it to you,
which is the answer from Yahya?/8/
/8/ See
Document 271.
Ambassador
Huang: Yes.
Dr.
Kissinger: He said that subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of my
communication-in other words these two provisions concerning negotiations being
done in a united way-India and Pakistan should agree to an immediate ceasefire
with the separation of armed forces standing fast; and the UN or another
international organization should provide observers to see that the ceasefire
is effective; and India and Pakistan at any effective level should immediately
open negotiations aimed at a settlement of the war and troop withdrawal; and
coincident therewith there would be negotiations looking toward the political
satisfaction of Bengali aspirations, that is, a political settlement. (Miss T'ang repeats, then interprets)
So now you
know everything we know. Our judgment is if
At this
moment we have-I must tell you one other thing-we have an intelligence report
according to which Mrs. Gandhi told her cabinet that she wants to destroy the
Pakistani army/9/ and air force and to annex this part of Kashmir, Azad Kashmir, and then to offer a ceasefire. This is what
we believe must be prevented and this is why I have taken the liberty to ask
for this meeting with the Ambassador.
/9/
According to the intelligence report, Gandhi referred to the destruction of
Pakistani "armored and air force strength"; see Document 246.
One
other thing.
The Acting Secretary of State-the Secretary of State is in Europe-called in
last night the Indian Ambassador and demanded assurance that India has no
designs, will not annex any territory. We do this to have a legal basis for
other actions.
So this is
where we are.
Ambassador
Huang: We thank Dr. Kissinger very much for informing us of the situation on
the subcontinent of India-Pakistan, and we certainly will convey that to Prime
Minister Chou En-lai.
The
position of the Chinese Government on this matter is not a secret. Everything
has been made known to the world. And the basic stand we are taking in the UN
is the basic stand of our government. Both in the Security Council and the
plenary session of the General Assembly we have supported the draft resolutions
that have included both the ceasefire and withdrawal, although we are not
actually satisfied with that kind of resolution. But we feel that the draft
resolution which had support in the Security Council and especially the one
which we voted in favor of in the General Assembly,
reflect the aspirations of the overwhelming majority of the small and medium
countries. And in the plenary session of the General Assembly this draft
resolution was put forward by Algeria and Argentina and 38 more and it was
adopted by a majority of 104./10/ The opposition consisted in effect of only
two-the Soviet Union and India. The others were either their followers or their
protectorates. We feel that this reflects the aspirations, it shows where the
hearts of the people in the world turn to.
/10/
See footnote 11, Document 248.
Miss T'ang: (To Dr. Kissinger) Do you
understand?
Dr.
Kissinger: Oh, yes.
Ambassador
Huang: It shows what the majority of the people in the world support and what
they oppose. Because if India, with the aid of the Soviet Union, would be able
to have its own way in the subcontinent then there would be no more security to
speak of for a lot of other countries, and no peace to speak of. Because that would mean the dismemberment and the splitting up of a
sovereign country and the creation of a new edition of
Therefore
we believe that the draft resolution that was put forth in the General Assembly
in the UN put forward two minimum principles, two minimum criteria. One is
ceasefire; the other is withdrawal. And in his speech in the General Assembly
with regard to this matter; Deputy Minister Ch'iao Kuan-hua has explained this question in a more
comprehensive and fuller way. We should persist in this stand, and we hold that
any action that may be taken by the UN cannot go below the resolution passed by
the General Assembly. It cannot be anything that carries less than that resolution.
And on
this point of view, in my personal opinion, we feel the position taken by the
United States Government has been a weak one. From what I just heard in the
letter to Yahya Khan and your conversation with the
Indian Ambassador and also your communications with the
Dr.
Kissinger: That's not correct. We put forward both principles. There are two
separate problems, in all due respect. We don't want in the principle of
withdrawal to have
Ambassador
Huang: And then there's this question that the British put forward that they
wanted the leaders of the
Dr.
Kissinger: Not to Brezhnev.
Ambassador
Huang: And you mention negotiations should start from where they were
continuing.
Dr.
Kissinger: Brezhnev said that. What I showed you was a question to Yahya. We have not agreed with Brezhnev.
Ambassador
Huang: But Brezhnev's proposal is essentially the same one that Mr. Malik has been saying here.
Dr.
Kissinger: That's true.
Ambassador
Huang: In fact, it means legalizing of the new refurbishment of another
This goes
against the desires of the people in
Dr.
Kissinger: There is no question about that.
Ambassador
Huang: And you also are clear about our activity, that
is we are prepared to meet attacks coming from the east, west, north, and
south.
Dr.
Kissinger: When we have an exchange program between our countries, I hope to
send a few State Department people to
Miss T'ang: We didn't finish. Ambassador Huang: We are prepared
for attacks on the east, west, north, and south. We are prepared to engage in
guerrilla warfare once again with millet and rifle, and we are prepared to
begin our construction over again, after that eventuality. And the private
attitude adopted by Brezhnev which we see now, in which he talks about
so-called political negotiations is in fact direct and obvious intervention in
the internal affairs of a sovereign country and something we feel is completely
unacceptable, is inadmissible.
Of course
we have nothing here about the military situation in the India-Pakistan
subcontinent except what we read in the newspapers. But from our experience of
a longer period we feel that the struggle waged by the people in
We have an
old proverb: "If light does not come to the east it will come to the west.
If the south darkens, the north must still have light." And therefore if
we meet with some defeats in certain places, we will win elsewhere. So we keep
persevering. So long as we persevere in principle and a just struggle, then
final victory will still be ours. I don't think there's need for any more
elaboration on that, because the history of the Chinese people's revolution
itself is a good example.
Mr.
Kissinger: Mr. Ambassador, we agree with your analysis of the situation. What
is happening in the Indian subcontinent is a threat to all people. It's a more
immediate threat to
But while
we agree with your theory, we now have an immediate problem. I don't know the
history of the people's revolution in
We want to
preserve the army in
We want to
keep the pressure on
We are
prepared also to consider simply a ceasefire. We are prepared also to follow
your course in the UN which most of my colleagues would be delighted to do and
then
So we will
. . . we agree with your analysis completely. We are looking for practical
steps in this issue which happens to be a common fight for different reasons.
We will not cooperate with anyone to impose anything on
What do
you think of ceasefire without political negotiations? The only reason we want
political negotiations at all is to preserve
Ambassador
Huang: Are you prepared to take the step in the UN of putting forward a
proposal simply for ceasefire, along this course?
Dr.
Kissinger: No, that's why I'm talking to you. Let's be practical-by tomorrow
the Pakistan Army in the East will have surrendered. Therefore should one have
a resolution for a ceasefire in the West?
Ambassador
Huang: Why should we not condemn
Dr.
Kissinger: We do. We don't mind condemning
Ambassador
Huang: . . . A step should not be taken backward from the resolution already
passed in the General Assembly.
Dr.
Kissinger: There are two separate problems. The resolution in the General
Assembly is one for the whole problem-that can be maintained. We are not saying
we accept the occupation of
But this
is for you to decide. You have many other problems on many other borders. What
is going to happen is that the Pakistani commander in
Ambassador
Huang: We feel that the situation on the subcontinent is very tense and is in
the process of rapid development and change. And therefore, as I expressed
earlier, we will immediately report what you tell me.
Dr.
Kissinger: I don't want the Prime Minister to misunderstand. We are not looking
for a way to get out of the situation. We are looking for a way to protect what
is left of
We have
the immediate practical problem-is it better to have a ceasefire or is it
better to let the military events continue? In either event both of us must
continue to bring pressure on
(There is
an exchange in which Dr. Kissinger confirms to Bush that he talked to Bhutto,
that he was meeting him the next morning and that Bush's appointment with him
was confirmed for later this night.)
I shall
tell him (Bhutto) he should take his direction from you on whatever resolution
he wants and that we will support him. I shall tell him to disregard any
American official except me and General Haig. He
doesn't have to take his direction from you, but I will tell him to check with
you. Usually you criticize us for sticking too much to our friends, so we will
not in this case create the wrong impression.
Ambassador
Huang: As for Bangla Desh,
has Ambassador Bush recently met with anybody from Bangla
Desh?
Ambassador
Bush: The Ambassador is referring to a squib in the New York Times.
(Ambassador
Bush then explains the incident that led to Ambassador Huang's query. Mr. Choudury, who used to be in the Third Committee of the UN,
three weeks ago asked Ambassador Bush for an
appointment in his capacity as a judge in
Ambassador
Huang: I am clear now.
Dr.
Kissinger: In any event, no matter what you read, no one is authorized to talk
to the Bangla Desh. We
don't recognize Bangla Desh
and will not recognize it.
Ambassador
Huang: I thank Ambassador Bush very much for his explanation.
Ambassador Bush: One of the men had defected from the Pakistan Embassy in
Dr.
Kissinger: My former personal assistant is now working for Senator Muskie. There are many defectors around these days.
Mr.
Ambassador, I am going to the
But I want
Ambassador
Huang: I don't have anything else.
Dr.
Kissinger: Good. I wish happier occasions would bring us together. We have
particular affection for
So we are
prepared to listen to any practical proposals for parallel action. We will do
our best to prevent pressure against any country that takes unilateral action.
I shall speak to Mr. Bhutto tomorrow in the sense that I have indicated to you.
Ambassador
Huang: Of course, we will also contact Mr. Bhutto and, of course, as you later
clarified yourself, we of course will give no directions. Yahya
Khan is the President, and we only have friendly exchanges.
Dr.
Kissinger: Of course. The word "direction" was not well-chosen.
Ambassador
Huang: We think that is all there is today. What we need to do is to relay this
to Prime Minister Chou En-lai.
[Omitted
here are closing pleasantries.]
Source: Document 274, volume XI,